Honda NT650 "Deauville" - Fuel Pump & Relay Problems

(Nothing on this page applies to the 700 Deauville, which has fuel injection instead of carburettors. However the 700's high pressure pump may also fail and is a very expensive replacement.)

If your fuel pump has failed - the symptoms are that the bike runs very hesitantly, not at all or merely staggers into life, when you know that there is fuel in the tank. This "hesitation" can also happen when the engine is under load and going uphill, especially if carrying a passenger.

A completely failed fuel pump means that your engine won't run at all and the get-you-home fix is to connect the output from the filter directly to the input to the carburettors, bypassing the pump completely. This should work fine until the tank runs onto reserve, because until then there is enough gravity feed to push petrol through. The pump's only purpose really is to feed fuel to the carbs when the level in the tank is too low to get through on its own.

Gerry Fahy says "Finally found the issue with the Deauville not starting - faulty petrol pump. Found that the contacts on the pump were totally burned out. Checked the price of a new pump and it is really expensive about £90 + carriage. After a bit of research I found a "Fuel Pump Repair Kit - Points Switch" from Wemoto which is actually a new set of points (pictured, top left)

Gerry adds (3-March-2011) that there is a video clip of this pump.

These are very easy to fit with one wire to solder and two screwed connections. The pump is very accessible behind the left hand black side cover and you just remove the black plastic cover from the pump to expose the points. I carried out all the work with the pump attached to the bike. The cost of the repair kit is £22 so a big saving on the price of a new pump."

David Silver's Deauville Honda OEM Fuel Pump (£139 @ Feb 2012) and Repair Kit (£19.95 @ Feb 2012)

The fuel filter - it makes sense to replace this if it's looking dirty inside - is part number 16900-MG8-003 (£9.25 @ Feb 2012)

I've obtained the points replacement set from David Silver. Thanks to Alan Whyte who sent me a couple of the diodes necessary to make the "diode mod" which is an excellent idea if you plan to use the Honda pump. I'm going to leave the Facet pump in place now unless it gives any problems, and keep the refurbished Honda pump as a spare unit.

Benedict adds a comment about how the Honda fuel pump works : "When the carbs empty, the fuel in the pipes moves to the carbs allowing the spring loaded plunger in the pump forward (or push against the fuel). When the plunger reaches the end of its travel it allows the points to close, activating the electro magnet which then withdraws the plunger to the start of it's pumping cycle, also opening the points and deactivating the magnet. Which allows the spring to move the plunger forward against a fresh charge of fuel. Simple! So when the points burn the plunger stays at the front of it's stroke, effectively blocking the fuel flow. So it not only stops pumping, it also stops any flow through the pump. Which is why you need to take the pump out of line if it fails. And yes, I've found that running pump-free is perfectly OK until you are useing lots of throttle."

Here is a photo of the burned fuel pump points. You can see that the contact area between the two carbon elements is totally knackered.

Here is the set of new points from David Silver's:-


Here is where to obtain and how to fit the Facet aftermarket fuel pump

Vicky Sherley-Price, photo left, of Fuel Pumps Online (0117 907 8569) will be very pleased to arrange to supply you with the Facet No.40104 Aftermarket Fuel Pump and its two correctly sized adapters (outside diameter 16mm, inside diameter 10mm). You will need all these for replacing the fuel pump on the 650 Deauville. You can even pay by PayPal!

Vicky says (May 17th 2016) that there is an alternative model, the Posi-Flow 60104, and adds "The Posi-Flow is the same internal specification as the old 40104 cube pump but offering a more compact design and black plastic housing reducing noise levels over the old style pump. Being a fan of everything old school my personal preference remains with the metal cube style pumps."

Dave Baker has kindly sent some pictures of the alternative pump, these are at the bottom of this page.

After 6 years of using the Facet pump I can say that apart from a gentle ticking sound whilst standing alongside with the engine at idle, I have not noticed any sounds from the pump at all. Touching it you can feel the 'heartbeat' but you certainly can't hear the pump ordinarily.

Tools required: 12mm ring spanner; pliers; PTFE tape; soldering iron and solder; 4 x 12" long tie wraps; scissors; and a couple of feet of petrol-safe rubber fuel pipe 10mm inner and 16mm outer diameters plus a brass connection piece - I had my pipe from eBay - the supplier was 'Planet Silicone'- also try your local auto spares or tool supplier shop for the brass connector.

Total spares cost : £55.


I am very receptive to comments and suggestions, but you use these pages entirely at your own risk.

Skill levels explained. Return to the Deauville Web Resource

Skill Level : 2. Dirty Level : 1. Work Mess Level : 1. Tools level : 1. Space required : 1.

Time : a couple of hours.

The fuel pump is about the same size as a golf ball, albeit square-ish.

Remove the two rubber bungs from the ends of the pump. Wrap the threaded end of the adapters with PTFE tape to seal the threads and screw the adapters in tight using a 12mm ring spanner. Cut off the earthing ring at the far end of the black wire.

Note the direction flow on the pump - this is clearly stamped on the pump case FLOW > and the direction is from the end with the large shoulder- here on the left - to the end with the small shoulder - here on the right.

Fuel flow on the Deauville is from the tank via the tap to the fuel filter to the pump to the carburettors.

Author's note : after experimenting with a pair of 90-degree junctions instead of the regular adapters, I didn't use them, as their orientation makes mounting the pump impossible.

As minor fuel spills are likely during this procedure, it is very important that at this stage you turn off the fuel (the tap should be horizontal) and the ignition. For safety reasons you are advised to work in a well ventilated space, with no possibility of sparks or a naked flame. A fire blanket or extinguisher would also be a good idea ro have handy.

Remove the saddle and left hand side panel. It is not necessary to remove the fuel tank or any other bodywork. Leave the ignition key in the saddle lock to ensure that the ignition does not get turned on whilst work is in progress.

Using pliers, slacken and slide clear the circlip which holds the short fuel pipe from the filter to the old pump and then the one which secures the long pipe from the old pump to the carburettors.

Pull the pipes away from the old fuel pump. Some petrol is likely to leak out at this stage.

The old pump is held in a rubber ring which is a push fit onto the two metal tongues which form the upper parts of a shiny U-shaped bracket. Pull the pump upwards and off the bracket. Don't give it a huge tug once it comes away as it will still have its power lead connected.

Pull off the slim rubber tube which is just a simple drain pipe from the pump, this is there in case fuel leaks within the pump.

Pull this pipe right off the bike - you don't need it now - but cut off two 2" lengths, as you'll need these later on for another purpose.

(I can't help feeling that with the amount of sparking going on inside the pump cover, if any fuel did happen to get in there and need to drain down this thin pipe, an explosion would probably result!)

Remove the long crosshead screw which secures the fuel pump's black cover, and pull the cover off. It may be a tight fit as there is a very slim o-ring to seal it.

Remove the screw which secures the green earth wire to the pump body and pull the green wire clear. Whilst double checking that the ignition is off, cut the 12 volt black-and-blue power line, ½" or so from where it disappears inside the pump body.

Also cut off the securing ring from the end of the green wire.

The old pump can now be completely removed from the bike.

Here is a photo of the fuel pipe (DIN 73379 Type B 10.0 x 15.00mm) I had from 'Planet Silicone' on eBay, and the brass junction which connected this pipe to the Honda rubber pipe leading to the carburettors. The junction came from my local tool suppliers.

Slide the two cut lengths of slim pipe over the wiring - the rubber pipe makes an excellent insulator. Trim all four wires ready for soldering and use your soldering iron to pre-solder each bare wire end ready for joining. I'm a great believer in the maxim that "you only ever solder solder to solder."

(You can use inline snap connectors or other means of joining the wires if you wish, but really soldering is the best way to do it. Don't just twist them together!)

Power 12v: Solder the RED wire (here, third from left) from the new pump to the BLACK/BLUE wire from the Deauville (here, leftmost)

Earth : Solder the BLACK wire from the new pump (here, rightmost) to the GREEN wire from the Deauville (here second from left).

Once the joints are cool, slide the rubber pipe over each joint and secure each end of each pipe with "insulting tape".

With a little manoeuvring the new pump is located in the old pump's U-bracket, although it goes in upside down, with the small shoulder on the pump facing backwards and the large shoulder facing forwards. I also wrapped the pump body in a sheet of rubber, to dampen any vibration or noise. With the pump located securely, fix it in place with tie wraps.

Attach one end of the new fuel pipe you bought to the output (the short end) of the fuel pump and secure it with circlips or Jubilee clips. Pass the pipe extension backwards then with a very gentle loop, forwards and past the new pump. Offer the free end up to where it meets with the Honda rubber pipe leading to the carburettors, and trim the new pipe to a suitable length. Then use the brass junction to connect the two pipes, securing them with Jubilee clips.

I recommend using a piece of stiff wire - perhaps a piece of old-fashioned coat hanger wire - to shape and then bind to the curved fuel pipe, ensuring that it remains in its gentle curve and can't kink and strangle the fuel flow.

On this and the next photo I've highlighted, in yellow, the route of the fuel pipe. A lot of it is unfortunately hidden behind the bodywork and frame but I hope you can see how it was positioned. If you prefer to route the long pipe over the top of the fuel pump, that is fine, the pump can cope with this.

Fuel Pumps Online do sell a 90 degree junction (pictutre, left) which you may find easier to connect than a long curved DiY pipe. These junctions are £6 each (May 2016) but as I said earlier in this page, this does make mounting the pump much more difficult.

 

Connect the output from the fuel filter to the input (long end) of the Facet pump, trim this rubber pipe a little shorter if needs be, then secure both end with Jubilee clips.

The above view is looking vertically downwards from over the battery. You can't see much of the new pipe but it has a very 'relaxed' bend hidden behind the red bodywork before it comes forward to meet the carburettor feed pipe. What you don't need here is the possibility of a kink in the new pipe, which would impede or stop fuel flow.

I secured my pump with a couple of long tie wraps crossed over the pump body and passed under the U-bracket and then pulled very tight.

Tuck the wiring out of the way and turn on the fuel and ignition. There is a safety cut-out in the Deauville's system to ensure that the pump is only powered when the ignition is on and the engine is running, so just turning on the ignition won't make the pump operate. This ensures that in the event of an accident, the engine stops and the fuel pump then also stops.

The engine should now start and run normally, you should be able to feel and hear the pump operate. Visually check for any fuel leaks, tighten any clamps as necessary and replace the side panel and saddle. I found that the pump is a trifle noisy - with a ticking sound - until it's been running a few minutes, then it isn't audible over the idling engine.

Take the bike for a short run 'round the block' and then check again for leaks. Finally do a 'full bore' test including some hard acceleration and then some running at full cruising speed.

That's it - you're done!

Ben O'Rourke adds : "Hello Rob, hope you're well. Just another email to say thank you again. I had a crash on my deauville a month ago and it hasn't started since. I'd changed everything I could think of, oil, spark plugs, fuel, fuel filter, HT leads everything. Then your website pointed me towards the fuel pump, guess what, it's knackered. I would never have reached this diagnosis without your website. Your step by step guide to changing the pump and guidance on points has been an essential lifeline. To me, your website is better than the Haynes manual, and you can quote me on that. Thanks again. Ben O'Rourke"

Andrew Widger (10th March 2015) says : Thank you so much, just got my Deauville back on the road after 3 years in the garage. Fuel pump/relay problems garage tried to charge me big money and frankly they didn't have a clue! Thanks to your excellent site and Vicky at fuel pumps online pumps we are all up and running!

Graham Keens adds (May 6th 2016) "Place the tip of a long screwdriver on the pump body whilst the engine is running, listen with your ear against the screwdriver handle and a regular ' tick tick tick' tells all is well."

Comments and suggestions welcome - please remove the extra 'z' from the email address.

Posi adds useful hints on mounting the Facet pump:-

 

"The Facet mounting plate wedges between the framework above and below the plate. With the addition of a foam rubber base to reduce vibration, cut from an old mouse mat, and a couple of cable ties, around the top and bottom of the mounting plate, it seems very secure and almost looks like it should be there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I ordered the same fuel pipe from eBay as you suggested and cut it to fit between the filter and pump. I haven't bothered with jubilee clips as it seems unlikely to move. The remaining longer part of the pipe loops nicely round, resting on the bodywork below the hand grip hole. It was no longer long enough to meet the old pipe without kinking so I have connected them with a bit of 10mm copper pipe. Again no jubilee clips as the connection is tight.

Following that thread on the forum recently about reduced mpg, I'm going to run the tank dry, whilst carrying a spare can, to make sure it works on reserve ok. Might also be interesting to know that you can't really hear this pump unless you put your ear beside the thing on tick over.

Maybe newer models are quieter. I have seen quite a few posts from people complaining about the noise of them. Or perhaps if I had been using my hearing aids it would have been different."

NOTE that some MoT testers will fail a bike which does not have all ends of the fuel feed pipe secured with clips.


Peter says, on the subject of apparent fuel starvation:-

"Can I pass on a 'get you going' tip? My NT650-V2 [2003] would occasionally peter out and grind to a halt. This was very similar to running out of fuel. No power then, it would only idle for a bit and then finally stop. After about 5 minutes, it could be coaxed back to life then would be perfect for about a month! These occasions became more frequent. I worked out it had to be fuel starvation but as it worked for hundreds of miles without a hiccough between each event, I ruled out any kind of blockage or contaminated fuel problem. It HAD to be the pump, OR the fuel pump relay.

I guessed that if the pump went, it would not begin to work again since it is electro mechanical and robust, it would either work or fail full stop! that left the fuel pump relay. It is hidden under the seat right at the back behind the number plate area and you have to dismantle half of the bike to get to it. I had a damaged bolt holding on one pannier so couldn't strip down the bike. I rang Hunts in Manchester and the guy suggested that if I didn't mind sore hands, I could manipulate it out from under the seat.

It took an hour, but I did it! I removed the unit and shorted out two of the wires, the engine started first time and has done over 4,000 miles since. This device simply stops the fuel flow if you have a bump, on those rare occasions when fuel lines are damaged. I can replace it but have chosen not to. It costs >£50!

The wires to short out on the lead to the relay are the BLACK and BLACK/BLUE. Cover in insulation tape and put it back where it came from.

It is located here: remove the seat, stand on the right hand side of the bike looking to the rear. The unit is small and located on the left side of the bike down between the frame and the rear panel in a small space within a square rubber holder. It can just be manipulated out with finger tips etc., and dogged tenacity! It can help to remove the panel the number plate is screwed to."


David Abrahall adds : "There is a New Zealand based manufacturer of alternate fuel pumps, called "Fuel Flow" and they can be found here." he adds "For the motorcycle market the 015m would be the best solution particularly as the components are stainless steel, and we cannot use bike all year round, since talking to Graham a new low pressure, stainless component pump is now available for older bikes. The company I am in the process of starting is Kiwi components, contactable at kiwicomponents@yahoo.co.uk , 07980 299505 & home on 01676 534372. A website will be live soon on http://www.kiwicomponents.com/ . The design of the pump is unique in that the 1 way valve is in the piston, this makes it self regulating and quiet in operation. There are no points and the polarity is protected in case of connecting the wrong way."


Dave Baker has kindly sent (August 2016) these photos of the installation of the alternative fuel pump.

He says "Here's some photos of the pump conversion as promised. Hints: use good quality hose (original is really rather flimsy) and decent hose clamps, especially on the outflow side of the pump where pressure will be higher. Did not bolt to frame as suggested but adapted the original lugs and rubber mounts to reduce vibration. Unit looks free floating but is actually firmly mounted either side. Put an in-line fuse near the pump. Try to mount the pump level or with an uphill flow. Best routing seemed to be to take the filter to the rear and loop the pipe back to the pump inlet. It's not quite level but it's the best I could do without seriously kinking the hoses. Used cut lengths of spare hose to wrap around potential chafing points (especially the old filter lug). Found a frame bolt for an earth point. (the red lead to the battery is actually an earth for my HID which needs a truly beasty earth. I didn't have any black wire!)"


Mark van der Borght adds:-

"I own a 2001 Deauville that is heading for the 100.000 km by now. Fuel starvation I encountered was not relative to fuel level in tank but outside temp (probably moisture as well) and the time the engine didn’t run. (I called it early morning fuel starvation). I had a look at the manual but that gave me a troubleshooting on the wiring the pump and the relay, without pointing to the ignition box that signals the relay together with the ignition of 1 cylinder.

I didn’t want to go through all the foss in removing all the fairings and opened up the pump backside gaining acces to the contact points. They had contact surface reduced to 20% approx. because of arcing. Simply a few dry passages with 600 grain ‘wet sandpaper’ restored a minimal contact for functionning, confirming that I need to change the contacts ASAP."

Many thanks for that info, it amplifies the subject described in the Haynes manual.